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Barna
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(Date Posted:07/03/2007 19:35:53)
As we all know, those who can? play will rant... As I intend to play 7th Sea again with my SotC (LINK Spirit of the Century) conversion sometime in the next decade  , I have been giving some long hard thought to some issues regarding the canon 7th Seabackground prior to the actual mechanics adaptation. One of these things is fencing & swordsman schools. While I generally liked the way R&K handled duelling mechanics-wise, the background aspect of it always seemed odd. The dozens of schools, the grading systems, the powerful Swordsman? Guild, all ended up feeling kinda artificial and silly. Therefore, I? like to brainstorm a bit on how the whole issue of fencing could be reworked background-wise. One of the main issues is the number of schools. Should there be so many? My first choice would be to keep a single "national" school for each country, which would be closer to reality and more fitting for my tastes. Also, while I like the diversity of 7th Sea, sometimes I? a bit weary of the wide array of weapons used. I? not sure if non-fencing weapons warrant so many schools (I? thinking of Posen, Drexel, etc.). I think I? like to make the weaponry of Theah a bit more unified. Leaving out Ussura and Vesten, I think the rest of the countries should mainly keep to rapiers, shortswords, pappenheimers and other "historical" weapons, at least when it comes to regulated, "schooled" fencing. It may sound a bit harsh, but again, it? a matter of personal taste; I just want to see what your thoughts are. Apprentice/Journeyman/Master qualifications are also something I? not entirely comfortable with. In a way, it feels more like a mechanical "level" thing than something which would happen in a place like Theah. I beleive that there was some sort of mastery regulation on 1600-1700 Europe, but it had to do more with an economic matter (regulation ALA ISO9000) than record keeping of an individual? prowess. I? miss the pins and all, but I? prefer a blurrier distinction between levels of swordsmanship, with perhaps masters having an official recognition of their status. On the Swordsman Guild, I like it in general, but it does not serve it? purporse as presented. An organization which supposedly was created to uphold the virtues of chivalry and single combat makes it nigh-impossible to actually have a duel, while allowing mercenary swordsmen to challenge non-trained fencers. Therefore, my main change to the SG regulations would be to modify duelling rules. Duels may be initiated between SG members at any time, but after the duel the event must be reported to the local chapterhouse for review (this also gives the Guild an interesting "record keeping" function). Offenses and duelling conditions are quite regulated; someone issuing a duel to the death for a petty insult could be expelled from the Guild and turned over to th authorities. Same thing goes for first blood duels ending in kills. The duelling activities of those not affiliated with the SG fall under the jurisdiction of local law (and duelling IS illegal in most Thean nations). Wow, long post. I?l post the second part later...in the meanwhile, ideas?
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"No era el hombre mas honesto ni el mas piadoso, pero era un hombre valiente"
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Ravenshadow
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(Date Posted:07/03/2007 22:45:13)
I don't mind a large number of schools.
Part of the problem is the definition of schools.
After all, think about it today, any idiot can open a martial arts school...whether they are any good and the school is in any way successful is another matter. My guess, it was not so different with fencing schools back in the day. Someone fights in a duel or impresses the right noble and all of a sudden they open a school.
The problem becomes that "Schools" in 7th Sea are overly bloated in effect and have nothing all that much to do with schools in general historical terms, if you know what I mean. How many have Mastered and are capable of TEACHING a school? Is Valrouix being taught like football at the universities in Montiagne? How about Villainova? Where are the masses of Vodacce learning that one? Or are schools taught by the origin-Masters or direct Student-masters at their "dojo"? How many students can they tach at one time before they begin to suffer (much like our classrooms in America today)("No little duelists Left Behind" programs?).
In a way, 7th sea takes alot of the romance out of a given School by mass producing it, more schools makes more variety which helps thin out the amount of play a school gets.
Just a few random neurons firing...
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Salamanca
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(Date Posted:07/04/2007 05:07:04)
one thought. reporting the duel after the fact is the second option. Primary option should be reporting the duel before it happens so the Guild can sanction said happening and provide a fair match for all parties. (as in sending seconds, making sure the weapons are fair, etc)
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Damn! Asking for exposition is like kryptonite to NPCs!
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Barna
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(Date Posted:07/04/2007 06:32:28)
Reply to : Ravenshadow
In a way, 7th sea takes alot of the romance out of a given School by mass producing it, more schools makes more variety which helps thin out the amount of play a school gets.
Yeah, I beleive that is one of my gripes with the system. Although each school has some nice flavour text and all, they truly feel like "player gimmicks" sometimes. The same goes for the Apprentice/Journeyman/Master distinction. Another idea I had tinkered with is creating generic national "styles" and having schools be small, regional variants. For example, Castillian schools would emphasize riposte-like counterstrikes, feints and tagging, but there? room in there for some variation; therefore Aldana, Gallegos, etc. On the other hand, Vodacce styles favour dirty fighting, pommel strikes and the like. Seems like an interesting idea and it makes schools much more personal to the player. Reply to : Salamanca
one thought. reporting the duel after the fact is the second option. Primary option should be reporting the duel before it happens so the Guild can sanction said happening and provide a fair match for all parties. (as in sending seconds, making sure the weapons are fair, etc)
Yeah, forgot to post that. The first choice would be prefered by the guild, and after-duel reports could be investigated if facts are blurry. As a matter of fact, this would turn Razors (I just HAVE to change that name...) into swordsman-investigators rather than enforcers, which I like a lot.
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"No era el hombre mas honesto ni el mas piadoso, pero era un hombre valiente"
Arturo Perez Reverte, primera linea de ´El Capitan Alatriste´
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Black Jack Rackham
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(Date Posted:07/09/2007 16:53:08)
So, I've been given some thought to your ideas Barna and, bolstered by just having seen my copy of The Fencing Master, I have some comments. What if swordsmen, rather than gaining a new ability for the school they are in (apprentice, journeyman, master) start learning ways to 'improve' the school? Lets just use my favorite as an example. I go and learn Aldana from Senor Aldana (if there was such a person) so now I have Feint, Tagging, Riposte. But over the course of time, I find myself using more aggressive songs. I tweak the Riposte to more of a Stop-Thrust. Now I open a school, teaching the Edwards school which teaches Feint, Tagging, and Stop-Thrust. The field would be constantly changing as swordsmen 'improved' on their learning.
(I know, from a purely mechanics standpoint, this would become horrible)
A variant of this (which would make for more work on your part, but be less uber-munchkin) would be to have a group of maneuvers that went with each Knack. Pirate Trick tried to do that, effectively making almost no two Rogers swordsmen alike. Each school would have a maneuver that went with the Knack (so, for my Aldana swordsman above, it might be a stutter-step to the left) but as time goes on I can learn new maneuvers, making my school similar to, but not exactly the same as the original Aldana.
Just my 2.13274187346 cents worth.
Mark
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"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid."
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BadMrMojo
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(Date Posted:07/09/2007 22:29:56)
The alternative to BJR's idea is to expand the idea behind Rogers and just make one single school: Formal Duelist Training.
At each level, the player may choose which abilities they want to take and put them together in whatever order they desire (with the GM's approval, naturally). Additionally - just like Pirate Tricks - make most of the stuff available as advantages as well, so that people can create informal 'schools' without locking themselves into the same mechanics.
It'd require a lot more GM intervention and review (to keep things balanced), but it might work for some players and lessen the number of schools mechanics-wise while still allowing for near-infinite flexibility (and giving players without a swordsman school the ability to do cool stuff).
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Ian Mackinder
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