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danar
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(Date Posted:05/03/2007 18:47:13)
Well, first suggestion would be to be careful how you word things. i think most of the people here ARE 7th Sea guru's which means they change stuff all the time. i can't remember ever being at two tables that used precisely the same set of rules. second is that while i think there are definate improvements to be made to 7th Sea, i don't know that making it match l5r should be the goal. just making it better.
now to specifics : while i really like l5r's ring system, i don't think there is any benefit from altering 7th sea to match it. l5r works because it is encouraging diversity and balance simultaneously. 7th sea is going more for simplicity and astounding action. i don't know anyone who is going to instinctively understand that brawn relates to perception or finesse is intelligence. i think the basic 5 stats 7th sea has work alright.
you mention making the cost at creation and experience to be the same, but fail to explain what that cost should be. its got potential, but i'm curious how it would work with stats.
raising knacks to 10 seems fine, until you start rolling that stuff. the best in the world now rolls 10k5. increasing the knacks makes it 15k5 (aka 10k10). giving it a bonus (above average appearance for social rolls) makes it 10k10+10 and THEN spending a single drama die makes it 10k10+30 (10k12+10). I'm sorry, that just seems too high unless you make sure the cost is appropriate. under the current system, if you start with an attack knack of 3 and buy it up with experience, you've got to pay 98 xp (compare to the 112 experience points to become a master level swordsman from apprentice). who is going to hit more often? a master aldana swordsman with 8k3 to hit or this guy with 10k6? you're definately talking a very serious game. you do realize that the tn for defensive knacks would be kinda high, though, right? footwork of 10 and wits of 3 means tn 55 and rolling 10k6 (13k3) for active defense. (using your additional rule for active defense makes this 55 + 10k6!) if i play my ultra high character (and if you make rules like this, people are going to want to try to play those characters), you could run into a grandmaster swordsman with passive defense of 70 and an average active defense well over 100. i think this has possibilities, but this definately needs some playtesting before i'd sign off on it.
i don't think emphasis adds much. its another bonus to keep track of, taking us more into accounting than simplistic swashbuckling. i don't think this is a good addition. however, i like the extra advantage if its a static addition rather than different for each one. (one that was suggested previously was that you can call an additional raise AFTER the roll is made for every rank you have past 3. aka i have a 5 in accounting, i roll my accounting check and may call 2 additional raises after i see my total.) i think your version works fine too, but i strongly feel it should work for all knacks equally, not just defensive ones.
normally, you become a master when your swordsman knacks are at 5. i think you meant you can only raise the knacks PAST 5 when you've reached master. if you go with the knacks past 10, this sounds good.
i don't understand what you mean by ranks and insight. i know they're l5r stuff, but how does it interact with 7th Sea? i can't be a master swordsman until i boost my perception and willpower?
active defense adding to your passive doesn't make that much sense to me. l5r has such a rule because if you get hit, you die. you throw everything you have into defense because its your only hope of survival. 7th sea doesn't have that problem. i think l5r also doesn't have the equivalent of panache determining # of actions (sorry, its been a while). with this change, it would mean that if i have a higher panache, i'll probably go first, i'll almost certainly be able to parry anything you can throw at me, and then i'll pick you off later. (in case you think i'm exagerating, a decent journeyman vs another will probably have knacks of 4 and stats of 3. that's a passive tn of 25 and an active defense of 25 + 7k3 vs an attack of 7k3.)
so, you've got some interesting ideas, but they'd need to be much more fleshed out before i find them compelling.
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-dana
"All of our best and oldest legends recognize that time passes and that people grow old and die."
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skablah
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(Date Posted:05/03/2007 21:27:56)
Well, first suggestion would be to be careful how you word things. i think most of the people here ARE 7th Sea guru's which means they change stuff all the time. i can't remember ever being at two tables that used precisely the same set of rules. second is that while i think there are definate improvements to be made to 7th Sea, i don't know that making it match l5r should be the goal. just making it better.
Sorry about that. I made an edit in the top to reword what I was trying to say. I was at work so I was in and out while typing. I have no beef with the 7th Sea fans here. I'm just saying that most people do not like to make major changes to a system if they enjoy the system the way it is. Minor ones, sure. But I think that 7th Sea though created recently, is starting to reflect an outdated feel as far as the system goes. Basic, quick and easy is great. That's how L5R started out as well. Reguardless of their being rings and insight you cannot deny the fact that the system was just as easy as 7th Sea in L5R 1st Edition.
you mention making the cost at creation and experience to be the same, but fail to explain what that cost should be. its got potential, but i'm curious how it would work with stats.
Well i'm happy to see someone was able to take a look at this, I was moreso posting notes I could edit as I moved forward. How L5R 3E does it is this..
Advantages Cost X Amount
Disadvantages Give X Amount
Traits cost 4 times what you're going to. So if raising from 2 to 3 it costs 12. You start with a 2 in every trait...
You will gain a trait bonus for both your country and your swordsman school or sorcery school. If you have neither, then this reflects on the fact that you don't have the bonus. I'd also say bring on the notion of a mercenary swordsman. Someone who (similar to a ronin) learned his sword fighting through experience and never really joined a school. People can take this rather than organized sword schools...
Skills is tricky because in L5R you don't have the notion of knacks and skills. You just have skills. My proposal is get rid of the idea of Skills and call each individual 'knack' a skill knack. Individual Knacks cost 1 times the number you're raising to. Raising a knack from 0 to 1 costs 1, while raising a knack from 1 to 2 costs 2.
You may take one swordsman school for free or one half-blooded sorcery or half-blooded eisenfaust for free. Anything past that requires experience. But by buying a swordsman school you gain all free swordsman knacks related to school plus all skills that come with your school. I'd recommend adding in a few skills to the schools to make them a bit less martial. Even western sword schools have philosiphy's and while a swordsman trains in a sword school he also attends some basic 'courses' on life by his instructor. For Example: Maybe Aldana has Etiquette.
Now this is rough at best at this point. But this is modeled very close to the way L5R 3E works...so stay with me. This is pre-Alpha testing.
raising knacks to 10 seems fine, until you start rolling that stuff. the best in the world now rolls 10k5. increasing the knacks makes it 15k5 (aka 10k10). giving it a bonus (above average appearance for social rolls) makes it 10k10+10 and THEN spending a single drama die makes it 10k10+30 (10k12+10). I'm sorry, that just seems too high unless you make sure the cost is appropriate. under the current system, if you start with an attack knack of 3 and buy it up with experience, you've got to pay 98 xp (compare to the 112 experience points to become a master level swordsman from apprentice). who is going to hit more often? a master aldana swordsman with 8k3 to hit or this guy with 10k6? you're definately talking a very serious game. you do realize that the tn for defensive knacks would be kinda high, though, right? footwork of 10 and wits of 3 means tn 55 and rolling 10k6 (13k3) for active defense. (using your additional rule for active defense makes this 55 + 10k6!) if i play my ultra high character (and if you make rules like this, people are going to want to try to play those characters), you could run into a grandmaster swordsman with passive defense of 70 and an average active defense well over 100. i think this has possibilities, but this definately needs some playtesting before i'd sign off on it.
I'm not sure how L5R 3E handles this. My guess is they expect the GM's to limit players but that's assuming the GM is experienced enough to do so. I do like the notion of the possability being 10 after you become a master swordsman. But yes, this part we'll have to investigate into further.
i don't think emphasis adds much. its another bonus to keep track of, taking us more into accounting than simplistic swashbuckling. i don't think this is a good addition. however, i like the extra advantage if its a static addition rather than different for each one. (one that was suggested previously was that you can call an additional raise AFTER the roll is made for every rank you have past 3. aka i have a 5 in accounting, i roll my accounting check and may call 2 additional raises after i see my total.) i think your version works fine too, but i strongly feel it should work for all knacks equally, not just defensive ones.
Sounds fair enough. We'll investigate this further as I move forward.
normally, you become a master when your swordsman knacks are at 5. i think you meant you can only raise the knacks PAST 5 when you've reached master. if you go with the knacks past 10, this sounds good.
Yes, martial ranks are capped at 5 unless it's related to your swordsman school. Then you may rise under the GM's disgression well past that number. But whether or not this would truely break things when we see how L5R deals with it. In L5R 3E you could have 15k10. I'm just not sure how they deal with it.
i don't understand what you mean by ranks and insight. i know they're l5r stuff, but how does it interact with 7th Sea? i can't be a master swordsman until i boost my perception and willpower?
Insight Ranks are fixed numbers (Rank 1: < 100 Rank 2: 150-175 etc etc).
Your Insight is determined by your rings x 10 + skills + any bonuses. So an average character will start somewhere between 100 and 135 or so. So to answer your second question, perhaps Perception and Willpower do make you a better swordsman in ways. Or you could ignore these traits and focus on other ways to hit Insight Ranks such as harboring a serious pool of skills or focussing on just one Ring and the two traits beneath it. If I had Brawn Ring at 2, Finesse Ring at 3, Wits Ring at 3, Resolve Ring at 2 and Panache Ring at 2 + 30 Skills I now have 150 Insight Rank.
To raise to rank 2 you must both have your insight to the desired number and have all your swordsman knacks at rank 3.
active defense adding to your passive doesn't make that much sense to me. l5r has such a rule because if you get hit, you die. you throw everything you have into defense because its your only hope of survival. 7th sea doesn't have that problem. i think l5r also doesn't have the equivalent of panache determining # of actions (sorry, its been a while). with this change, it would mean that if i have a higher panache, i'll probably go first, i'll almost certainly be able to parry anything you can throw at me, and then i'll pick you off later. (in case you think i'm exagerating, a decent journeyman vs another will probably have knacks of 4 and stats of 3. that's a passive tn of 25 and an active defense of 25 + 7k3 vs an attack of 7k3.)
True. This is in fact true. But what I did like about 7th Sea's defense is it gave a bit more power to what you had in the skill rather than it being more about the trait. I'll have to think about an alternate way to get the best of both worlds. Something that gives more to a defensive stance while at the same time not making it impossible to hit them.
Thanks again for the reply.
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