Black Jack Rackham
|
1# |
Rank:none
Status:
Score:0
Posts:707
From:
Registered:
02/26/2004
Time spent:
0 hours
|
(Date Posted:11/10/2006 18:05:20)
Reply to : spithe
Your Thoughts?
Just off the top of my head, I have a couple. When I read the flavor text, it sounded to me like you were making a school that eshewed the killing (or even harming) of an opponent. But then, the first skill you took was Fencing. It seems that if you are merely trying to give an entertaining show you don't need any one particular weapon (or any other item for that matter) in hand. It seems to me that Dirty Fighting might be more appropriate (not to mention that it would reduce the damage done to the opponent).
Next, you chose Acrobatics (giving you the good defensive Balance AND Footwork). While I can understand this from a mechanics standpoint, nothing in the Mastry levels does anything with it (or for Fencing for that matter). The advantages of mastery should build upon the skills you've taken.
Knacks: Tagging, Ok you want Vasquez fighters (VF) to use the DD to get the raises needed to push their opponent's next action die past 10. However, I see a Problem* with this (see below). Envelopment, it's a good idea, but where I see this going is that this knack is the only attack a Vasquez fighter every uses. No third knack (will deal with this under Mastery Levels).
Now the Mastery Levels:
Apprentice: Allowing a choice of final knack here. Ok big problem. The idea behind a swordsman school is that they all fight the same (otherwise that exploit weakness knack is useless (and no for the rest of you vultures I don't want to get into an argument about how it's useless anyway)). You should pick the last one and call it good (though my suggestion for a defensive school like this would be disarm). Showmanship advantage. Two things. First if you want VF to have it, use the points that Swordsman's Guild gives and apply it to Showmanship rather than giving it as an apprentice ability. Next, Showmanship deals with the repartee system and reputation points. Nothing else in your school deals with that. Start over for Apprentice ability.
Journeyman: envelopment bonus, once you raise enough you get their action. By itself I see no problem, it follows with the theme of the school. However, the VF has nothing beyond envelopment to fall back on. So all in all, they are likely to go for another envelopment. So lets just cut to the end. VF has taken all his opponent's actions for the round, and now has a free action. What does he do?
Master: Builds on the Journeyman ability. I would probably be tempted to say this is way too powerful a bonus except for the fact that it just exaserbates the problem I just mentioned.
Problem* - This is really the crux of my difficulty with this school. Every practitioner will die. Now I realize you will say that about any other schools, but these swordsmen will die because only at master will they have a chance of succeeding in a fight. Up to that point they will constantly be at the mercy of their opponents. They just cannot get enough actions to do all the things you will need them to do. Let me use an example. We have a Vasquez fighter and (insert other school here) fighter. Both have average stats. Both are Apprentices. Initiative for for VF is 2, 4, 9, for OF 1, 5, 10. Right off the bat, OF creams VF for one free hit. On 2, VF holds waiting to do his envelop. On 4 VF tags OF in order to use the dice for the upcoming envelop. He then proceeds to envelop (now if the GM, or other player for that matter is a cruel person, they've hidden their action dice so VF doesn't know how many raises he needs to get rid of the action). Assuming he does know, he needs to get 5 raises, well as an apprentice he's pretty sure that won't work so he goes for 3 and succeeds. OF's action dice are now 9,10. VF goes on 9 but since OF still has his 10 OF goes first. He smacks VF again. Since envelop is an attack rather than defense, he can't use it against the hit he just got, so he goes for the 10. He succeeds and OF doesn't get his last attack. If it hasn't happened already, in another round VF is going to be hurthing (if not unconscious), and here is the crux of this. VF is going to continue to use this method until he is down? At some point he is going to have to fight back, cause if he doesn't he will die.
Overall I like the idea of taking the opponents actions away from them. I even like the envelopment in theory. However the problem is you have too many balls up in the air. You never make good use of Acrobatics (which you could), you obliquely use the repartee system but then don't, and you focus WAY too much on one single knack to the exclusion of any other ability.
Anyway, I know this sounds harsh, but I learned at the foot of the master, and believe me, if you can impress the master you can impress everyone.
All hail Sal, Lord of Swordsman Schools.
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------
"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid."
Friedrich Nietzsche
|
|
Salamanca
|
2# |
Rank:none
Status:
Score:0
Posts:4517
From:
Registered:
02/25/2002
Time spent:
2115 hours
|
(Date Posted:11/11/2006 07:41:10)
Great concept but the implementation needs some work.
Captain Rackham has most of it covered but I'll add my insights anyhow.
Background: Excellent. I love the concept and the idea behind this as well as the quirk of non-lethal style. A+
Curriculum: I understand the acrobat aspect but Preformer may be the better option here.
Guild Status: It's not a school if you are not using the same knacks as pointed out. I agree on offering Showmanship instead of membership in the guild.
Knacks: Tagging is a must here, Wall of Steel is wasted as you have inferred Envelopment to be an "Attack" move. Bind and Disarm both have merit in this school as extensions of the motion used in the envelopment. (and I can't believe I am about to type this) Side-step would make a potent combo with envelopment as well. My personal choice would be Bind.
Apprentice: You simply do not have one. This school needs something to create that effect of exploiting the large advantage you mentioned. a Mild bonus that improves with ranks gained is perfect here. a free raise per mastery level to attack (fencing) might be the order here. Also look at the Torres, Gallegos, Soldano, and Andrews schools for inspiration at apprentice for this school.
Journeyman: I'd need to play with this a bit to see how it balances. It's a good idea but does it hinder things too much to grant a free action on phase 10 rather than immediate. and does it make things too strong if you allow the player to potentially hold said action. This is probably a playtest issue to work out but I like the concept.
Master: Captain Rackham hit the nail on the head here. Great benefit but it does not employ a great flash moment for the hero. this is a school built around flair so the master ability needs to be spectacular. Something that implements the showmanship benefit to force a character to yield in the fight may be in order. Set a specified number of actions removed by envelopment as the activating factor and when it's reached, the swordsman gets a free action to attempt a repartee action to force the opponent to surrender. That's your big flair moment.
Great concept, the mechanics however will not win in a balanced fashion against the established schools. (keeping in mind every defensive knack will work agains the envelopment so the riposte schools will beat you silly)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Damn! Asking for exposition is like kryptonite to NPCs!
|
|
Poisoned Shadows
|
3# |
Rank:none
Status:
Score:0
Posts:17
From:
Registered:
12/03/2006
Time spent:
0 hours
|
(Date Posted:12/12/2006 11:57:16)
'kay. Let me draw on a couple of points here, raised by our esteemed co-leader and leader-emeritus.
Background: Nice, really nice. Not so much a swordsman school as a school for dramatic swordplay, a number of which have earned very good reputations. (Hunt down the movie The King's Guard; it was basically a vehicle for the fencingmaster of one of those schools and a number of his favorite students. Plus, it's a hoot and a half to watch.)
Curriculum: I have no problem with Fencing in here; actors do train with real (albeit less pointy) swords. I agree with those who suggested replacing Acrobat with Performer. I do understand the appeal, but students of this sort of school would certainly get their flippy-floppy training elsewhere.
Knacks: As said, leaving one up for choice is a big no-no. An actor with a sword needs to maintain precise control of the weapon to avoid injuring his opponent; as such, Tagging (the "precision" knack) is a definite must. I can live with Envelopment, but it needs a bit more explanation regarding its purpose in this school. Why would two actors (who don't want to harm one another) put actual pressure on the blade. I sense that the goal is to "throw the sword wide" and create the obvious opening you mentioned; if that's the case, make it more clear. I'm not a big fan of the name, either. I've come across the name Cavatione used to describe a circular attack directed generally towards the blade; you could consider using that. The last Knack: Disarm. I can't imagine any other Knack that would be at home in an acting school like this. Virtually every stage/screen fight has a moment where someone's sword gets flipped away. Take advantage of that fact.
Showman in lieu of Guild membership works well for me. That's a very nice touch. I know the rest of the school does nothing regarding repartee actions; maybe we can fix that. Otherwise, even without formal training through this school, anyone taking this school should be making extensive use of repartee anyway, just by nature of his character.
Apprentice: Sal is right; an escalating ability is a good starting point for this school. I would stay away from Attack (Fencing), as well as Parry (Fencing). These guys aren't trained to attack and defend for real; they're trained to put the pointy end of the sword exactly where it needs to be to put on a good show and keep anyone from getting hurt. Thus: the Apprentice gains a free Raise to Tagging for each ML. Or, to make the Knacks combine a bit better, why not make it a Free Raise per ML to Envelop?
J'man: I like what you're doing, and I'm going to offer it some defense, ala Black Jack Rackham. First, I have to suggest that this is one of the rare cases where the screen has to come down; if a swordsman wants to use his Enveloping ability, he gets to know the Dice he's aiming for, as part of the Mastery Ability. Yes, the situation he describes is pretty bleak, and sometimes, that will happen. But what if the VF rolls 1, 4, 7, and the opponent rolls 2, 6, 8?
On Phase 1, the VF Envelops with three Raises, taking out that "8." The VF immediately gets another action. He could attack (a reasonable option)...but let's say he envelops again. He doesn't have a lot of Raises to play with, so let's say he pushes that 6 up to an 8 or a 9. Phase 2, he gets stabbed, sure enough. Then on Phase 4 (held to Phase 6), another Envelop, this time taking out the opponent's LAST Action. He gets a free action immediately. Stab, or heck, even Tag. Then on 7, stab away! He's taken one hit, but he's inflicted at least one, and as many as 3. Even Black Jack's example could be reworked more favorably in the VF's favor, so long as he gets to know his target dice (Phase 1: VF gets hit. Phase 2: VF envelops and eliminates opponent's 10. He tags with his free action. Phase 4: He holds to Actively Defend the attack in Phase 5; or if he's feeling lucky or has DD to burn, he envelops again, hoping to get rid of that 5. Either way, he still has an attack coming in Phase 7, possibly with at least one extra DD, and the opponent has no recourse (unless he's a Tricomi fighter).
So, J'Man: When attempting an Envelop, the Swordsman can choose which of his opponent's Action Dice to target. If he bumps the AD past 10, he gets an immediate action. (Note that if you give the Free Raise per ML to Envelop Actions, this becomes a MUCH more powerful combo, and would need to be reflected in a reduced Master Ability.)
Master: Sal's idea has merit, but I would take a different approach. In essence, you have to embrace the idea that the VF isn't just stabbing blindly, trying to look passable. He's taking advantage of all his strengths--including his Dramatic training. (This is very, very much an RP-heavy school, so it doesn't need to be uber-powered; people who want the flavor will take it anyway, and people who want power won't grasp the concept behind it sufficiently.) If and only if you restrict the Apprentice Ability to the FR per ML in Tagging (the combo becomes too potent otherwise, IMO), you could use this: Whenever you use your Enveloping ability to strip an opponent's action, your Fear Rating increases by 1 with respect to that opponent. (He has to wonder what sort of crazy fighter he's up against, who keeps outmaneuvering him, even before he can get a simple attaqck off.) Whenever the Fear Rating increases, the opponent must make a roll to resist it. After one or two Envelops, no big deal. But after three, four, five...it starts to get iffy. And failing one of those rolls has a crippling effect on the opponent's abilities.
Think of it as an auto-intimidate action.
Just two more cents for you to consider. Keep plugging at it; I really like what you have here (especially the new Knack).
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Why, with the power of the Death Star, can we not have a tray that is dry?" --Darth Vader, in the Death Star canteen
Poisoned Shadows on the Web
|
|
Poisoned Shadows
|
4# |
Rank:none
Status:
Score:0
Posts:17
From:
Registered:
12/03/2006
Time spent:
0 hours
|
(Date Posted:12/12/2006 11:58:35)
Oh, and... Reply to : Black Jack Rackham
All hail Sal, Lord of Swordsman Schools.
I concur, 100 percent.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Why, with the power of the Death Star, can we not have a tray that is dry?" --Darth Vader, in the Death Star canteen
Poisoned Shadows on the Web
|
|
spithe
|
5# |
Rank:none
Status:
Score:0
Posts:7
From:
Registered:
04/04/2006
Time spent:
0 hours
|
(Date Posted:01/10/2007 12:18:02)
now that the holiday deadlands(wooo) is over its time once again for 7th sea. which means it's time for...
Vasquez Showman School Ver. 2.0
Origin: Ballroom in Montaigne (but any hero can learn for 25)
Background: A traveling performing trope was passing though montaigne when they where invited to perform at a private function for the local baron. They preceded with their performance much to the boredom of the visiting noblemen. This was nothing they hadn't seen a hundred times before. Frustrated at the lackluster response he was getting from his entertainment, the baron threw them out with out payment. Well, at least he intended to. Carlos Vasquez, a member of the trope, was fed up with this sort of thing. If he could not get his money he would take it out of the baron's hide. It was easy for him to get the baron to fight him. The expensive vase he tipped over saw to that. The hard part was the realization when they crossed swords. He could not kill this man. Killing a noble would just get him and possibly his friends hung. But he could not back out now. He would have to force this baron to give up. And if there is one thing that the montaigne value more then life it is their reputation. Carlos used every trick he had ever learned to attempt to win and he knew he had when the baron stormed from the room having been unable to land even a single blow. This had, however, been a two-fold victory. Not only had he won, but he had also won the crowds favor. This was something they hadn't seen before and it would seem they liked it. Thus a new style was founded, not one of just fighting but also entertainment.
"Very impressive, Mr. Shaw; now kill him" - a swordsman
"Kill him? I'm afraid we never got to that part" - student of the Vasquez school
This does lead to the main weakness of the style. It favors flashy moves over harming its opponents. Its students will pass up small openings as the untrained masses wouldn't be able to appreciate it being exploited. So instead the student is trained to force large openings that look more impressive. But this is also part of the styles strength. To force these openings the student must be good at getting his opponent just where he wants him.
Curriculum: Fencing, Performer
Guild status: You're kidding, right? There is no way the guild would want to associate itself with this "frivolous practice of fighting almost solely for entertainment value". You instead of learning guild law learn to play to a crowd. Gain the showman advantage.
Knacks: Tagging, Side-step, Bind, Exploit Weakness (Vasquez)
Apprentice: once you have control of their weapon, maintain control. when spending an action on bind, increase targets next action by ML times 2. Any actions over ten are discarded.
Journeyman: Who needs to stop? Not you, you just continue on your merry way. if one action can not cover the increase from binding, apply the extra amount to the next action.
Master: the only thing more frustrating than a man with a smart mouth is one you can't put something sharp in. every time you force an action to be discarded you gain a free raise to your next Taunt. In addition, if you make a taunt with 4(maybe) raises for no additional effect, you wound your foes pride and he must take one social wound (See Noblesse Oblige pg. 27 for details).
once agian, thoughts?
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Do any of you speak a language I can surrender in?" - Valentine Frost
|
|
Mondavi
|
6# |
Rank:none
Status:
Score:0
Posts:66
From:
Registered:
06/08/2004
Time spent:
0 hours
|
(Date Posted:01/11/2007 00:01:57)
Only have a few moments, so I'll have to peruse more carefully later, but this stood out...
"Very impressive, Mr. Shaw; now kill him" - a swordsman
"Kill him? I'm afraid we never got to that part" - student of the Vasquez school
Gotta love Cutthroat Island. 
--------------------------------------------------------------
~ "Honor is not about making the right choices; It is about facing the consequences." ~ Midori Koto
~ "After all, if a bloody-handed Sunflower can rip a dimensional event horizon into the air to swallow a bullet, I think I could dive behind a box." ~ Ravenshadow
|
| | Welcome to The Collection of Flashlights!Wolf-eyes ,your eyes break the darkness! |
|
|
