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Abendroth
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(Date Posted:08/22/2007 04:39:13)

We all know that Traits are overpowered. When a cost/benefit analysis reveals that something is too good, there are two ways to fix it:1)Reduce the benefit.2)Increase the cost.Most people choose the former and try to find a way to make skill more powerful, thus reducing the advantage you get for taking Traits.To me, this seems like an overly complicated solution. Why change the system when increasing the costs would be simpler and more elegant solution.Thus I propose the following:Increase Trait costs to 12 points/rank in Character Generation. All Traits start the game at 2 not 1. You can buy one trait down to 1 rank in exchange for 10pts. Purchasing a new level during play will cost 8*new rank instead of 5*new rank. Players still have 100pts, for simplicity.This will create a character who has 12 more points, relatively speaking, assuming they choose the same stats. But pointsnotput into stats will buy more than they did before. The HP costs have been raised by 50%, the XP costs by just over 50%. Before, you could increase 2.5 knacks for the cost of increasing one Trait of a given level. Now, you can increase 4 knacks.I'm relatively new to the game, so I'm not sure this is the best level but I think it's an improvement. Since it will always be better to increase a Trait rather than a number of Knacks of equivalent cost (If I can increase Finesse one level or increase 4 Finesse Knacks one level, Finesse is still at an advantage since it gives a better bonus to the Knack use and has other uses) I have to price Traits so that the equivalent cost in Knacks is more Knacks than you are likely to have for that Trait. If it costs 4 Knacks worth to increase a Trait but I only have two Knacks, suddenly the knacks don't look as bad. However, I have no idea what number of Knacks a Trait has on average, so I would appreciate comments. Also, this will slow down character progression unless you slightly increase Xp awards, since it now takes more Xp to advance from Apprentice to Journeyman etc.Starting all Traits at 2 instead of starting at 1 and getting equivalent extra Hp, and only allowing 10HP for buying down a Trait are simply attempts to cripple the character creator system. This isn't GURPS and I don't feel confident enough in the system to be comfortable awarding people 60-72 extra points at character creation; with that many 'liquid' points I'm sure they could break the system in all-new ways.Addendum: Would it be better to make Traits slightly more expensive during character creation than after to encourage people to buy them up later, or is that simply a remnant of the "Traits Bad!" mentality?
Mr Big
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(Date Posted:08/22/2007 08:27:16)

I agree with you that traits are overpowered.  But increasing the cost may slow down character progression even more.  I think a better solution is to make other aspects of the character more appealing to spend your limited XP on.


My personal problem with the knacks versus traits is that there are so many knacks that if you put your XP into one it may only be used once or twice a session.  However a trait is going to be used 1/5 of the time for every roll.


So I've always found the best solution is to reduce the number of knacks.  A lot of knacks are redundant like Rigging and Knotwork.  Who needs both?  Just get rid of Knotwork and make all rolls that would have used this use Rigging instead.  I'm sure if you go through you could find a lot of other knacks like this.
Deykaras
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(Date Posted:08/22/2007 18:53:06)

An option that we're using in our campaign is that the maximum number of dice that can explode is equal to the skill rank. Otherwise we've kept everything else the same. So far that's been working out okay in terms of keeping the players interested in raising their skills as well as their traits.
Dinuvale
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(Date Posted:08/22/2007 19:01:22)

Hmm. That's actually a pretty elegant solution.

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Abendroth
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(Date Posted:08/23/2007 06:47:08)

Reply to : Mr Big





So I've always found the best solution is to reduce the number of knacks. A lot of knacks are redundant like Rigging and Knotwork. Who needs both? Just get rid of Knotwork and make all rolls that would have used this use Rigging instead. I'm sure if you go through you could find a lot of other knacks like this.









The problem with this is that you have to drastically reduce the number of knacks in order for this to work. Specifically, you have to reduce it to less than 2.5 Knacks per Trait. In order for a Trait not to be overpowered you have to be able to buy up more Knacks than you actually have for the cost of a Trait. If a Trait is worth as many Knacks as you actually have for that Trait, then it is still advantageous to buy the Trait. This is an average obviously, as some Traits (Finesse, Wits) have more knacks than others (Panache) but the principal remains. Between Swordsmen, Sorcerers and your basic Attack/Footwork/Parry/Pistols skills you probably already have close to 12.5 Knacks. Add even basic social Knacks.... If your system does reduce the average number of Knacks significantly below 12.5 then I can see it working; otherwise I think you would only mitigate the problem rather than solve it.



EDIT: I agree that this will slow down character progression. It would probably be a good idea to award extra Xp to keep the rate the same.



Reply to : Deykaras



An option that we're using in our campaign is that the maximum number of dice that can explode is equal to the skill rank. Otherwise we've kept everything else the same. So far that's been working out okay in terms of keeping the players interested in raising their skills as well as their traits.









How experienced are the characters? Do they continue to buy skills up past rank 3? I'm not sure how to quantify the effect of that kind of rule so I'd be interested in hearing what your players did with it.



Reply to : Dinuvale





Hmm. That's actually a pretty elegant solution.









Thank you.
Michel de Lalande
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(Date Posted:08/23/2007 13:35:46)

Reply to : Mr Big


My personal problem with the knacks versus traits is that there are so many knacks that if you put your XP into one it may only be used once or twice a session.


The whole knacks vs. traits issue may be controlled by the GM. I told my players that they should keep their traits at the level of their most important knacks or below, and the reason why. They didn't have a problem with it. The game is now in it's fourth year and one player now has a trait at 4: Panache. He's the only PC without Sorcery or a Swordschool.


I agree that there are a lot of knacks vs. traits. Without some guidance from the GM, players will tend to put all their XP into just one or two combat knacks- unless the GM provides encouragement for the player to create a more rounded character. If the players and the GM are satisfied with a scaled down game where there are about 5 minutes of roleplaying between combats, then that's ok.


If both the GM and the players don't want to be bothered by little details like how sailing ships work, then by all means condense knotwork and rigging. It's no different from people who see automobiles as just transportation: start the car up and point it in the right direction! Why bother with how engines and brakes work, if it's not important?


However, if the GM wants to encourage his players to produce well-rounded characters, he should provide situations to encourage his players to choose a diverse cross-section of skills and knacks- as many others have suggested in postings under other topics. And one way to do this is to provide lots of XP. If a player has enough XP to work with, he will be more likely (with a little guidance) to choose to expand and increase his knacks.


 


 


 


 


 
LaGardere
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RE:A different approach to fixing Traits
(Date Posted:03/19/2008 13:58:02)

A simple trick:

Give no more xp for drama dice and made allt he knack (level to attain x1) and not x2 anymore.  It fix three problems.

1- The knacks are far easier to raise. 
2- as there is no more Drama Dice Xp, the players will not be penalized to using them and will not retrain to do so.
3- As there is less xp globally, traits will be way harder to raise.

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Lord_Nabu
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RE:A different approach to fixing Traits
(Date Posted:03/22/2008 13:44:44)

I don't actually think traits are overpowered, rather that knacks are underpowered.

I've run a few sessions with a house-rule:

a knack at 3-4 allows one raise to be made after the roll
a knack of 5 allows two.

So far, it seems to work. It might be a mostly psychological effect, but...

apart from that, I use the revised Skill list that Danar posted here some time ago, that eases a bit up on the knack overflow, though some might need to be collapsed further.



(Message edited by Lord_Nabu on 03/22/2008 13:48:43)

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